There is good evidence to show that Hamelin had another daughter and co heiress, aside from Emmeline, who was mother of Hugh de Gundeville, administrator for Henry II (see p.491).
Bevan (2010), FND 3: 193-195
Rosie Bevan
Simon fitz Walter was son of Walter fitz Robert and Maud de Lucy, not Maud de Bohun.
CCR 1263
See DD amendment comments for p.621, de Oilli, Henry [II]
Rosie Bevan
p.315 de Bellocampo Vicecomes, Willelm
See DD amendment comments for p.725 de Sudeley, Radulf
"He died in 1190 leaving by his wife Hawise Paynel of Dudley (Mon. Ang. V, 204) a son Roger V (d.1220)"
Hawise Paynel could not have been wife of Roger IV de Berkeley because he was dead in 1196-7 when a Pipe Roll entry records Roger de Berkeley offered 60 marks to marry her. It is likely that Hawise Paynel married a Roger of another branch of the second house of Berkeley and which Roger died in 1230 as discussed in Smyth’s, ‘Lives of the Berkeleys’.
CP, 12-1: 110, note (c); Maclean (1883), 1: 47
Tim Powys-Lybbe
"His daughters were Amice, wife of Hugh de Clinton…"
Amice was wife of Henry de Clinton as correctly given on p. 403.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
"He died c 1187, leaving … a daughter who married Waleran de Newburgh".
Chronological considerations and grounds of consanguinity in a marriage of a later generation, do not allow for such a marriage to have existed. It is probable that it was his grand daughter Margery d’Oilly who married Waleran de Newburgh, not his daughter (see correction for p. 621).
Chris Phillips; Rosie Bevan
According to a charter of his son Faramus (p.335) to the abbey of Bec, William had two other sons, Eustace and Simon, and a daughter, wife of Hugh de Boseville (p.341), whose sons were William and Robert.
Monasticon Anglicanum VI p.1017
Rosie Bevan
“RRAN I, 956” should read RRAN ii 956
“He d.between 1134 and 1155, leaving by his wife Aanor, daughter of Judhael of Totnes, a son William.”
Philip was another son, according to charters by his brother, William, and there were two daughters, Gillian wife of Fulk de Merle, and Basilia (p. 430), wife of Odo de Dammartin, mother of Odo, lord of Strumshaw (p. 431).
Salzman (1923), no. 3,9; Stevenson (2006), no. 65; Pipe Roll 31 Henry I,94
Doug Thompson
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf
Katharine Keats-Rohan
"Father of Eva, wife of William de Chesney of Oxfordshire".
Eva was married to Walter de Chesney, as given in the next entry, Eva de Broc, the entry for Walter de Chesney on p.369, and as given in the citation - Salter, Cartulary of Eynsham, vol 1, nos 78-80.
Adrian Channing
"Daughter of Robert I de Brus, Wife of Ralph son of Ribald. Farrer, 'Early Yorkshire Charters' II, no. 650".
This citation actually shows that Agatha was daughter of Robert II de Brus.
Henry Sutliff III
“He married Sybil, daughter of Ralph de Chesney by whom he had issue Margaret…” Margaret would appear to have been a daughter of Robert by his second wife Aveline de Hesdin. As wife of Hamo de St Clair, Margaret made a gift to the church of St John the Baptist, Colchester for the souls of her parents, Robert and Aveline, “Et hoc feci pro salute anime mee et pro corpore mee illic sepeliendo et pro animabus patris mei Roberti et Aueline matris mee.”
S A Moore ed., Cartularium Monasterii Sancti Johannis Baptiste de Colecestria. Roxburgh Club, (1897), 159.
Rosie Bevan
p.366 De Cailly, Osbert II
Son of Roger Cailly, a Warenne tenant in Norfolk. He was the first husband of Hildeburg, daughter and heiress of Goel de Baudemont, by whom he had issue two daughters, Matilda, wife of Henry de Vere, and Petronilla wife first of Stephen de Longchamp. See EYC vii, 109-10, HKF iii,382-84.
Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters (1949), viii, no.23; Cronne/Davis, RRAN III, nos 304, 599-600, 653,665, 735; Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, IV, p.51, no. V
Comment: Osbert de Cailly II (III) d. 1196 was the last of the Norman line and son of Roger and grandson of Osbert. For chronological reasons he could not be a grandson of the Osbert living in 1066. He had 3 daughters and heirs, Alice wife of Stephen de Longchamp, Petronilla wife of Geoffrey de Bois, and Maud wife of Henry de Vere and Renaud de Bois. The Mon Ang reference should read V, p.51, no. V.
De Cailly, Roger
Son of Simon Cailly and Aline, a Warenne tenant in Suffolk. His first wife was named Joan, and his second Beatrice (Cart. Castleacre, BL Harley 2110, fol. 92v). His successor was his son Osbern II de Cailly. See EYC vii, 109-10; Farrer HKF iii, 382-84
Cronne/Davis, RRAN III, no.334
Comment: This entry conflates Roger, son of Simon Cailly of the Norfolk line and Roger son of Osbert of the Norman line. The successor of Roger de Cailly of Norfolk was his son John. There is no indication that Roger held land in Suffolk. The EYC reference does not mention Roger. The successor of Roger son of Osbert de Cailly of the Norman line was Osbert husband of Hildeburgh de Beaumont.
De Cailly, Simon
Perhaps son of Osbern I de Cailly, a Warenne tenant in Suffolk. By his wife Aline he was father of Roger de Cailly, who succeeded him c.1150/55. Roger made a grant for the souls of his parents, attested by his brothers William and Osbert, to Castleacre priory (BL Harley 2110, fol 92v). See EYC VII, 109-10; HKF, iii, 382-84.
Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters (1949), VIII, no. 49; Cronne/Davis, RRAN III, no. 177; Douglas, Feudal Documents from Bury St Edmunds, no. 188
Comment: There is no indication that Simon held land in Suffolk. He merely witnessed a Bury St Edmunds charter of his overlord William de Blois, who had succeeded to the Honour of Warenne by marriage to its heiress, of a gift of land in Suffolk. EYC VII, 109-10 relates to the Trumpington Caillys and does not mention this Simon de Cailly. The Norfolk Caillys evidently held an interest in the estate in Trumpington according to a suit of dower against John de Cailly in 1199. Simon’s wife was consistently named Alice, not Aline, in contemporary records. Probably both these English families were heirs of William de Cailly, a tenant of William de Warenne in 1086, who held Cley, Denver, Bradenham, Hilborough, and later Heacham in Norfolk, and Trumpington in Cambridgeshire. See Domesday People, 472-3.
While it is not possible to trace the Norfolk line back to its origins with any certainty, we can establish a documented line from Simon de Cailly in the mid-12th century through the thirteenth century.
Cailly of Norfolk descent
Simon de Cailly fl 1135-1189
= Alice
|____________________________________
| |
Roger d bef. 1199 Ralph
=1 Joan
| =2 Beatrice=2 Peter de Roche
John d.c.1209 Lord of Massingham, Cranwick, Bradenham, Oxburgh, Denver, Hillington, Heacham, Hilborough, Norfolk, tempus Richard I
=Margery=2 Michael Poynings
|
Adam succeeded 1209, d.1262
= Mabel Giffard
|
Osbert d. aft 1287
|
Adam d. bef 1316
=Emma Tateshale
|
Issue
Sources
William Farrer. Honors and Knights' Fees. Manchester University Press, 1925. III 382.
Francis Blomefield. "Clackclose Hundred and Half: Hilgey," in An Essay Towards A Topographical History of the County of Norfolk: Volume 7, (London: W Miller, 1807), 370. Reg. Castleac. fol. 86.
RRAN III, nr. 177, (1153 at Eye), p.64.
Feudal documents from the abbey of Bury St. Edmunds, edited by D. C. Douglas. OUP, 1932. 8, 163.
Lewes Cartulary, Salzman ed. 2, p.37, 55-56, 61
English Episcopal Acta VI: Norwich 1070-1214. ed. Christopher Harper Bill. OUP, 1990. No 77.
Bullock ed. Chartulary of Lewes. Norfolk portion. 1.
Judith A Green. The Aristocracy of Norman England, CUP 2002. 206.
EYC 8, p. 97 (Charter 49).
RRAN III, no. 177, dated 1153 at Eye, p. 64.
V. H. Galbraith "Osbert, Dean of Lewes", The English Historical Review, Vol. 69, No. 271 (Apr. 1954), pp. 289-30
The Norman Cailly family descent
Osbert I d. bef 1080. Held of the fee of Mortain in Normandy
|
Roger
d. aft 1103
|
?
Osbert II fl 1121- 1153
|_____________________
| |
Roger d. bef. 1172 Osbert
|_______________________
| |
Osbert III d.1196 Roger
Held 12 fees in Normandy 1172
=
Hildeburge de Beaumont=2.Robert de Picquigny
|_______________________________
| | |
Alice Petronilla Maud
= = =1
Stephen de Geoffrey de Henry de Vere
Longchamps Bois =2
Renaud de Bois
Sources
Transcriptions and French translations in Hyppolyte Lemarchand. L’Histoire de Cailly en Normandie, Libraire de la Société d'Histoire de Normandie, 1895. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GE-7FNLvFK8iJDIq5Kyx0x2BZsDLXqmuqoAzU_Z3EN0/mobilebasic#ftnt1
DELISLE/BERGER, Recueil des actes de Henri II, vol. 1, p. 241 (Marchand estimates 1170): modern estimate 1156-1160
Acte 6818 », dans SCRIPTA. Base des actes normands médiévaux, dir. Pierre Bauduin, Caen, CRAHAM-MRSH, 2010-2019. [En ligne] https://www.unicaen.fr/scripta/acte/6818.
Calendar of Documents Preserved in France, vol.1, 918-1206, ed. J Horace Round (London, 1899), p.29 (Charter 102, 1406).
EYC 8, no.23 gives date. Original: Castle Acre Chartulary, Harl. MS. 2110, f. 3. Published in Mon. Ang., V, 51, no. 5. Also see HKF 3 p.299.
Acte 375, SCRIPTA. Base des actes normands médiévaux, dir. Pierre Bauduin, Caen, CRAHAM-MRSH, 2010-2019. [En ligne] https://www.unicaen.fr/scripta/acte/375
Lewes cartulary, Salzman ed., vol. 2, p.61. "Osberno de Kailliaco"
Acte 6605, SCRIPTA. Base des actes normands médiévaux, dir. Pierre Bauduin, Caen, CRAHAM-MRSH, 2010-2019. [En ligne] https://www.unicaen.fr/scripta/acte/6605 ..
Acte 6602, SCRIPTA. Base des actes normands médiévaux, dir. Pierre Bauduin, Caen, CRAHAM-MRSH, 2010-2019. [En ligne] https://www.unicaen.fr/scripta/acte/6602
Acte 8509, SCRIPTA. Base des actes normands médiévaux, dir. Pierre Bauduin, Caen, CRAHAM-MRSH, 2010-2019. [En ligne] https://www.unicaen.fr/scripta/acte/8509 .
Acte 6087, SCRIPTA. Base des actes normands médiévaux, dir. Pierre Bauduin, Caen, CRAHAM-MRSH, 2010-2019. [En ligne] https://www.unicaen.fr/scripta/acte/6087
Acte 6633, SCRIPTA. Base des actes normands médiévaux, dir. Pierre Bauduin, Caen, CRAHAM-MRSH, 2010-2019. [En ligne] https://www.unicaen.fr/scripta/acte/6633.
RRAN III, nos. 600, 653, dated 1151-1153.
RRAN, III, no. 334
Acte 6820, SCRIPTA. Base des actes normands médiévaux, dir. Pierre Bauduin, Caen, CRAHAM-MRSH, 2010-2019. [En ligne] https://www.unicaen.fr/scripta/acte/6820
Acte 6918, SCRIPTA. Base des actes normands médiévaux, dir. Pierre Bauduin, Caen, CRAHAM-MRSH, 2010-2019. [En ligne] https://www.unicaen.fr/scripta/acte/6918
Acte 6818, SCRIPTA. Base des actes normands médiévaux, dir. Pierre Bauduin, Caen, CRAHAM-MRSH, 2010-2019. [En ligne] https://www.unicaen.fr/scripta/acte/6818
Acte 1376, SCRIPTA. Base des actes normands médiévaux, dir. Pierre Bauduin, Caen, CRAHAM-MRSH, 2010-2019. [En ligne] https://www.unicaen.fr/scripta/acte/1376
Daniel Power. The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth Centuries, Cambridge University Press, 2004.486.
Thomas Stapleton. Magni Rotuli Scaccarii Normanniae Sub Regibus Angliae, London: Society of Antiquaries. 1844. 2, p.cxiii
Red Book of the Exchequer, II, 628
Andrew Lancaster Oct 2023
p.368 de Caisneto, Johannes
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, IV, p. 14, nos VI, VIII - should be vol V
Chris Phillips
"Daughter of Ralph I de Chesney of Suffolk. Wife of Robert fitz Walter de Caen".
Farrer [HKF, 3: 314, 316] quotes conflicting statements about Sibyl's parentage, from the chronicle of Sibton Abbey [citing Dugdale, 1817-30, 3: 636b; 5: 559b] and Dugdale's notes of the chartulary of Coxford [citing Bodleian Library, Dugdale MS 39, ff. 103, 103d]. Both these accounts make Sibyl the sister of John de Chesney and the daughter of a Ralph de Chesney, but the former identifies this Ralph with one who "came at the conquest", whereas the latter gives two Ralphs, father and son. In Farrer's chart pedigree (p. 314) he shows Sibyl as the granddaughter of the Domesday tenant Ralph. As there seems to be no doubt that there were two Ralphs, and that John de Chesney was the son of the younger one, this seems to be correct.
HKF, 3: 314, 316
Chris Phillips
An internal inconsistency occurs here with Adelicia given as daughter of Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare and Adelisa of Chester, whereas under Ricardus II de Clare on p.398/399, she is not mentioned as one of his three daughters. Another daughter not mentioned is Lucy, wife of Earl Baldwin de Redvers, identified on p. 658 and p.245.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
The following citation is incorrect "See Round, Geoffrey de Mandeville, App. E.".
It should read "See Round, Geoffrey de Mandeville, App. K.".
Tim Powys-Lybbe
"…wife of Richard II de Redvers, earl of Devon."
Dionisia was wife of Richard I de Redvers, and Richard II de Redvers was her son, as given on p.659.
Bearman (1994), App II, no. 15b
"He married Alice or Adelicia, probably the daughter of Ranulf I of Chester and in 1136 widow of Gilbert fitz Richard de Clare…"
The name is a mistake and should read Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare as given on p.398
Peter Stewart
“At his death…he left a son Roland and daughter Emma, wife of Alan de Vitre.”
Emma was married to Robert de Vitre, and they were parents of Alan de Vitre.
VCH (NTH), 3: 181
Cristopher Nash; Chris Phillips, Rosie Bevan
Emma was wife of Robert de Vitre as recorded by Robert of Torigny on the death of Robert de Vitre and the succession of "filius suus Andreas natus ex sorore Rolandi de Dinan”.
Robert de Torigny, Vol. II, p. 46.
Michael Andrews-Reading
p.436 de Dol, Hadvisa filia Geldewini
"Daughter of Gilduin of Dol (d.1137) and Noga of Tinteniac, wife of Robert fitz Wimund of Avranches."
Hawise was wife of Robert fitz William fitz Wimund d’Avranches, as correctly given in the preceding entry. See also DD, p.263, de Abrincis, Robert, and DP, p.490, Willelm filius Wimundi.
Gordon Kirkemo
p.441 de Dunstanvilla, Rainald
"His widow outlived him by many years, but the accepted date of 1114 and/or the significance of her grant of Pottern to Tewkesbury abbey for his soul (Mon. Ang, ii. 66l RRAN ii, 1069) have to be rejected. The evidence does not support a second Rainald and is clear that Rainald de Dunstanville was alive in 1121 when he attended Bishop John of Bath on 30 June (Bath Cartularies, 49) and in 1129."
There is a problem with chronology under this scheme. The grandsons of the Rainald of 1129 seem to have been born around 1150. But Adelicia, the wife of the Reynold usually thought to have died before 1114 was the daughter of a Domesday tenant. There is a possibility that multiple generations have been compressed into one because of a lack of evidence in this early period.
Chris Phillips
“He left a son Henry by his wife Cecilia…” Cecilia may be identified as the daughter of Roger de Valognes and Agnes, daughter of John ‘nepos’ Waleran fitz Ranulf (and sister of Eustace and Payn Fitz John), by various evidences. After the confiscation of her husband’s lands she was holding North Weald Basset, and five fees pertaining to it of the Valognes fee, from which she granted the church to Clerkenwell priory. This can only have constituted her marriage portion and was not subject to the forfeiture. Additionally, after the downfall of Henry de Essex, Agnes fitz John settled 2 knights’ fees from her own marriage portion on Gunnor de Essex, her foster child and presumed granddaughter, in Fulbourne, Teversham, and Westley, Cambridgeshire, in a charter heavily witnessed by the family and household of Agnes, Countess of Essex, presumed elder sister of Gunnor. There may have been a double alliance arranged between the sons and daughters of Henry de Essex and Alberic de Vere (d.1141), for Alice de Vere, widow of Robert de Essex, held dower of the barony. Agnes de Essex had originally been raised to be wife of Geoffrey de Vere, but on refusing the match married his brother Alberic instead.
Book of Fees, 578; National Archives E 40/3699; CPX 206
Rosie Bevan
p.450 de Essex, Henricus filius Henricus
“Son of Henry of Essex…Held five fees of the fee of Robert fitz Walter de Valognes in 1227 and 1236…”
Given that Henry son of Henry de Essex witnessed two charters of Henry II in 1156 (in Argentan and Rouen) it is unlikely that the Henry de Essex holding in 1236 was the one and same 80 years later. This Henry was son of Hugh de Essex (d. 1213), younger brother of Henry junior. The subject of this entry appears to have died without issue by 1194 when Hugh confirmed his mother’s gift to Clerkenwell priory.
Dodwell (1974), 45; Eyton (1878), 20; Rot de Obl et Fin, p.501; Book of Fees, 578;
Hassall (1949), 23
Rosie Bevan
"Father also of Gunnor de Essex, who occurs in a dispute with the Valognes family over property of Binham (Mon. Ang. iii, 348)".
Gunnor de Essex was the daughter of Henry de Essex by Cecilia de Valognes (see p.449/450). There was no dispute with the Valognes family. Instead Agnes de Valognes had settled land on Gunnora, her granddaughter, in Cambridgeshire to provide for her following the confiscation of de Essex family estates. Part of this gift, land in Westley, originally belonging to Ely, was transferred to Binham priory, which issued a confirmation charter of Agnes’ grant.
PRO E 40/3699; VCH (NFK), 2: 343; VCH (CAM), 6: 177
Rosie Bevan
"given the manor of Bromley in Surrey by Henry II early in his reign".
He was given the manor of Bramley.
VCH (SRY), 3: 4-5, 53, 84
Chris Phillips
"… died in 1139, leaving by his wife Havise his son and successor Robert II, and several daughters, including ... Leticia, whose grant of a mill at Passenham to Richard Balzan was confirmed by her nephew Robert II de Ferrers ..."
Leticia is implied to be both sister and niece of Robert II Ferrers. Robert III is probably meant to have confirmed the grant.
Chris Phillips
"Younger son of Walter de Gand, brother of Gilbert II, earl of Lincoln. Married first Adelicia Paynel and secondly Gunnor, sister and coheir of Ralph II de Albini Brito, by whom he had issue Gilbert (son of Gunnor, earl of Lincoln by usurpation 1216, d. 1241), Stephen and Avice, wife of Robert de Beverley, mother of Maurice de Gand".
Confusion which may arise from this statement because Avice was daughter of Adelicia Paynel, not Gunnor, and was her sole daughter and heir.
EYC, 6: 34
Henry Sutliff III
This Robert, husband of Avice de Gant, is known as:
(a) Robert fitz Robert (fitz Harding). His father Robert fitz Harding was the first of his line to get the Berkeley estates.
(b) Robert, Lord of Were, from Smyth's Lives of the Berkeleys.
(c) Robert de Ghent, after marrying Avice and according to Sanders, Baronies, p.14.
Robert fitz Robert fitz Harding received an enormous number of properties including Beverstone such that Smyth says "this Robert lyved in great reputation litle inferior to his elder brother the lord Maurice, and was attended with knights and other servants, of eminent familyes and estimation." He was given the town and castle of Malmesbury by Henry the second.
This Robert fitz Robert's marriages get confused by Smyth who thought he married but once to Hawise de Gurney and they had two children, Maurice de Gant and Eve de Gurnay. Smyth tried to account for Eve's name by saying she married a Gurnay. The correct account is in Sanders p.14, note (6) where Robert fitz Robert fitz Harding m. (1) Hawise de Gurney and (2) Avice de Ghent /Gant / Gand. Maurice de Gand, son of Robert fitz Robert fitz Harding, married first Maud d'Oilly, and secondly Margaret Marshall, widow of Ralph de Somery, and d.s.p. in 1230.
Perhaps the entry could be revised to something like:
"... he had issue ... Avice, second wife of Robert fitz Robert Fitz Harding, known also as Robert lord of Were and as Robert de Gand, and mother by Robert of Maurice de Gand, d.s.p. 1230 ..."
CP, 12-1: 111
Tim Powys-Lybbe
This account gives the names of children of Walter and Matilda, his wife, but omits Agnes de Gand who has her own entry on:
p.470 de Gand, Agnes
"Daughter of Walter de Gant and Matilda of Richmond, wife of William II de Moyon."
Eldon Olson
"Wife of Herbert fitz Herbert the Chamberlain"
Technically this should be Herbert fitz Herbert fitz Herbert the Chamberlain.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
p.480 de Gloecestria, Margaret filia Milonis
"She controlled her father’s inheritance until her death on 6 April 1197…"
The reference, which given in the last line as Mon. Ang. vi, 34 should read Mon. Ang. vi 134, actually says that Margaret died on 6 April 1187 – "Margeria supradicta supervixit dominum suum Humfredum et postea moriebatur sexto die Aprilis anno domini MCLXXXVII".
Chris Phillips
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf
Katharine Keats-Rohan
“He married Agnes de Falaise, who appears to have brought him the five fees of the honour of Arundel formerly held by Hugh de Falaise.”
Agnes brought Hugh a moiety of these fees, being the daughter and coheir of Hugh de Falaise.
“He was succeeded in office by Geoffrey fitz Azzo, who had married his ‘nepta’ Agnes. This Agnes known as Agnes de Falaise and Agnes de Gundoville, was probably his granddaughter, in which case her aunt Agnes who held Offham at her death was Hugh’s daughter. It is unclear whether Margaret, daughter of Agnes de Gundeville, widow of Nicholas de Limesey c.1224/44, was a daughter of Hugh de Gundoville and his wife, or of their granddaughter”.
Agnes, known both as de Falaise and de Gundeville, was eldest daughter and heiress of lands descending from both parents, Hugh de Gundeville and Agnes de Falaise. The ‘aunt’ Agnes holding land in Offham when she died is possibly a scribal error, as the only aunt likely to have been holding Offham, would have been her aunt Emma (sister of Agnes de Falaise). The Agnes mentioned was more likely to have been her mother. Margaret was not daughter of Agnes de Gundeville, (who died without issue), but of her sister Denise, wife of Richard Murdac.
“He died in 1181 and was succeeded by his nephew Robert”
Hugh de Gundeville was succeeded by his two daughters Agnes and Denise, although before his death he had enfeoffed his nephews Robert and Hamelin in his estates in Dorset
Bevan (2010), FND 3: 198-202
Rosie Bevan
p.493 de Gurnai, Hadvisa; p.303 de Ballon, Roger; p.401 de Clera, Roger
"Wife of Roger, son of Hamelin de Ballon".
"Son of Winebald de Ballon of Caerleon and Elizabeth. By his wife Hawise de Gurnay he had issue three sons Roger, Hamelin and Arnold".
There is a discrepancy over whose son Roger was. Sanders p.68 indicates that Roger was son of Winebald, but if Roger did father three sons by Hawise de Gournay they must have died without issue, for by 1166 Winebald's daughter Mabilia was his eventual heir, and Eve was the heir of Hawise de Gournay.
Hawise donated the advowson of Inglescome, Somerset to Bermondsey priory for the soul of her husband Roger who may be identified as Roger de Clere who died without issue in 1183/4. After his death she made an agreement with Lewes priory (as Hawisam de Gurneio) by which she gave to the monks her land in Atlingworth which she received in dower from Roger de Clere to hold of her for £8 p.a. to be paid at her manor of Englishcombe, Somerset. It is apparent from a curia regis roll of 1220, that this Hawise who donated the advowson was also the wife of Robert f. Robert f. Harding, (third son of Robert f. Harding, Lord of Berkeley), alias Robert de Ghent. Their daughter Eve confirmed the gift to Bermondsey, and was married to Anselm de Gurnay and Roger de Peauton (Pelton). Eve's son by Anselm, Robert de Gournay, was heir to his half uncle Maurice (1184-1230), son of Robert f. Robert f. Harding of Beverstone, Gloucs., by Alice de Ghent, as documented in Sanders p. 14. In 1220 Robert de Gournay was still underage.
CRR, 9: 28; Sanders (1960); Mayr-Harting (1964)
Rosie Bevan; Edward Beaumont
“Wife of Roger, son of Hamelin de Ballon”. Hawise was wife of Roger, son of Winebald de Ballon. See p.303.
For “Dugdale, Monasticon v. IV p.95-97” read Dugdale, Monasticon v. V p.95-97
p.493 de Gurnai, Milesent uxor Hugonis
"Second wife of Hugh II de Gournay". Undoubtedly Hugh III whose entry above says he married Milisent is meant here.
Eldon Olson
p.495 de Haia, Muriel Uxor Robert
"Wife of Ralph de la Haie"
As the name heading suggests, Muriel was wife of Robert, not Ralph, de la Haie.
Gordon Kirkemo
"Daughter of Roland de Harcourt… Wife of William II Trussebut".
"…he left…a daughter Albreda (b.c.1120), wife of William II Trussebut".
Two different fathers given for Albreda.
Cristopher Nash
De Hastings entries pp. 505-507
Overall there is quite a muddle between the two families of Hastings of Little Easton, and Hastings the king’s dispenser.
For the purposes of clarification, the amendments are set out below with a more detailed explanation of the descent of the families given afterwards.
Rosie Bevan [May 2016]
Special acknowledgement goes to Andrew Lancaster for prompting this amendment and sharing his research on the Hastings family
http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/Hastings%20of%20the%2012th%20century.html
p. 505 de Hastings, Philip
Occurs mid twelfth century attesting a charter of Henry duke of Normandy. Brother of William and Ralph. Perhaps son of William fitz Robert de Hastings, lord of Little Easton (d.a.1166).
Cronne/Davis, RRAN III, no. 823; Douglas, Feudal Documents from Bury St Edmunds, no. 166.
The fact that a Philip de Hastings occurs in another charter by the abbot of St Edmund’s makes it likely he was related to the dapifer. However, the charter in RRAN III is considered spurious and therefore any relationship between Philip, Ralph and William de Hastings is not certain.
p. 506 de Hastings, Willelm
Son of Robert fitz Walter, lord of Little Easton. By his wife Helewis de Guerres he had issue Robert of Hastings, William of Hastings, Ralph of Hastings, Alexander and John (Cat. Ancient Deeds, A. 13694), and a daughter Beatrice, wife successively of Gilbert Carbonel and William de Goldingham (Mon. Ang. vi, pp. 972, 1190; Rot. de Oblatis, p. 537). Probably also father of Amabilis de Hastings, sister of William and wife successively of Richard fitz Robert Foliot and Ralph of Exeter (Cart. Old Wardon, p. 326). He died 1161/2. His widow married Gilbert de Picquigny and then (another) William fitz Robert (Fees, 282). She was still alive in the early thirteenth century.
No evidence that William fitz Robert and Helewise ever had a son named William de Hastings is given in A. 13694 or elsewhere. The citations given here do not relate to William’s children, but rather to Maud de Flamville, wife of Robert de Hastings. Amabel de Hastings was daughter to Hugh de Hastings, and sister of William de Hastings, the king’s dispenser.
p. 506 de Hastings, Radulf III
Son of William fitz Robert de Hastings, lord of Little Easton (d. a. 1166). Heir of his great-uncle Alexander of Wix c. 1163. A tenant of his brother Robert de Hastings in 1166. He occurs in a suit of 1188 inquiring whether his brother Robert had custody of half a fee in Wix, once held by Walter Mascerel, whilst he was guardian of Ralph, then a minor and whether or not any right remains to Robert by virtue of that custody (Curia Regis Rolls I, 61).
Ralph was the first of this family to be so named.
p. 505 de Hastings, Radulf II
Son of Robert fitz Walter of Little Easton. Nephew of Maurice de Windsor and his successor as dapifer of Bury St Edmunds. Dapifer to Queen Eleanor in 1155. He was granted land at Witham, Somerset, by Henry II (PR 2 Henry II, 30). He was dead by c.1163 when his widow Lescelina de Trailly answered for his lands in the Pipe Rolls. His heir and successor as dapifer was his nephew William fitz William de Hastings, who was confirmed in his position by Henry II in 1164.
The Ralph of this entry was not son of Robert fitz Walter of Little Easton, but son of William de Hastings, the king’s steward and brother of Hugh de Hastings, whose son, William, was Ralph’s heir. This Ralph was the first in this family to be so named.
p. 507 de Hastings, Willelm Filius Hugonis
Son of Hugh de Hastings and Erneburga de Flamville. Tenant of Earl Ferrers in 1166. Henry de Hastings, son of William, occurs in the late twelfth century (Danelaw Ch., 463). In 1166 he held two fees of Robert de Ferrers and one fee de novo of the demesne of Earl William of Gloucester. In 1235/6 the two and a half fees of William of Hastings in Tormarton, 'Suthrop' and 'Stawell' were held by the wife of Osbert Giffard, the wife of William of Hastings and Geoffrey Martel (Fees, 438). In 1242 Henry de Hastings held one fee at Congerstone, Leicestershire, of Earl Ferrers (Fees, 946).
The important point to be made here is that William son of Hugh de Hastings was the same person as William de Hastings the Dispenser, as below. The William de Hastings of 1235/6 in this entry is William de Hastings of Eaton Hastings, a different line.
p. 507 de Hastings Dispensator, Willelm
Son of William fitz Robert of Hastings, lord of Little Easton (d. c.1162). Heir of his uncle Ralph de Hastings (d. c. 1163). Royal dispencer to Henry, who, in 1164/5, confirmed him in the office of his paternal uncle (patruus) Ralph I of Hastings as steward of Bury St Edmunds, an office the said Ralph had inherited from his maternal uncle (avunculus) Maurice of Windsor. In 1166 he held five fees of Bury St Edmunds, and half a fee de novo at Compton, Surrey, of his kinsman William of Windsor. In 1163/4 accounted for 'terra data' at Witham in Somerset. Before 1162 it is difficult to distinguish William from his father in public records. In 1200 William de Hastings held five fees of Bury at Lidgate, Blunham (Bedfordshire), West Harling, Tibenham and Gissing, in Norfolk (Jocelin of Brakelond, 120); Thomas de (H)astinges owed service at Norwich castle for Gissing in 1198/9 (Fees, 1328). Around 1224 his descendant William de Hastings held the serjeanty of the king's dispencer ('tenet per sergantiam dispensarie regis') in Norfolk and Suffolk (Fees, 346). In 1226/8 and 1236 Henry de Hastings answered for the same serjeanty at Ashill in Wayland hundred, Norfolk, and for a fee of the honour of Clare in 1242 (Fees, 387, 402, 592, 919). In 1242 William de Hastings held one fee in Eton of Windsor (Fees, 844).
William the king’s dispenser was not son of William fitz Robert of Little Easton, but son of Hugh de Hastings and Erneburga de Flamville. William died before 1182 and was succeeded successively by Henry d.s.p.1184 and Henry’s brother, William d.1226. The William de Hastings recorded in 1242 was of Eaton Hastings, a different family.
The family of Hastings, the King’s Dispenser and dapifer of St Edmund’s
by Andrew Lancaster, Paul Reed, Rosie Bevan [2002-2016].
The descent of this family can be followed clearly enough owing to various inheritances - the office of royal dispenser, the Fillongley estate, the Flamville lands, and the stewardship of Bury St Edmunds, which descended directly from William de Hastings (d.c.1182) down the line of his heirs male, and had nothing to do with the family of Little Easton. The ultimate proof of these lie in the IPM of John de Hastings in 1312, which lists the estates pertaining to all four inheritances.
Serjeanty of Royal Dispenser.
The first person apparently documented at the head of his line is William de Hastings, the King’s Steward. This comes from William Dugdale whose information was taken from a confirmation charter owned by fellow Herald, Robert Glover. The charter by King Henry II to William II de Hastings, the King’s Dispenser, confirmed to him of all the lands his grandfather, William de Hastings Steward to King Henry I, and Hugh his father had enjoyed, as well as the lands given to Robert de Flamville, held by the service of two knights’s fees, to be held as freely as Henry I gave them to Hugh de Hastings his father with Erneburga daughter of Hugh de Flamville [William Dugdale. The Baronage of England, 574]. Unfortunately this charter does not seem to have survived to prove who the progenitor of this family was, but all the other details as they stand can be shown to be true from other sources as below.
King Henry II confirmed William II de Hastings (d.c. 1182) ‘dispensator regis’ in the stewardship of St Edmund’s (see below). The estate pertaining to the serjeanty of royal dispenser was the manor of Ashill, Norfolk, recorded in 1212 as being held by his son, William (III) de Hastings, who held 10 librates there – although in 1205, Ashill was held by John de Hastings, according to Round. John was a probable near relation of William who held it temporarily on behalf of the king owing to William’s debts. It was returned the same year, however [Book of Fees, 132; J H. Round. The King’s Serjeants and Officers of State (1911), 223; T. D. Hardy, ed. Rotuli Clausarum, I, 36b]. In 1226, 1235, 1236, and 1242-3, various investigations into serjeanties reveal that Henry de Hastings held 100 shillings worth of land in Ashill from the king either by the service of dispenser or “per seriantiam de panetrie” [Book of Fees, 387, 402, 592, 913]. When John de Hastings died in 1312, the advowson of Ashill, amongst many manors and advowsons, was allocated to his widow as dower.
The Fillongley Estate.
Henry of Pytchley records from a list of Peterborough knights made in 1252 by Robert of Swaffham, that Fillongley in Warwickshire was the caput of a holding which Robert Marmion held of the abbot of Peterborough, to which pertained “Leire, Shackerston and Odstone” in Leicestershire. “Henry de Hastings holds Fillongley with the said vills of Robert Marmion.” [W T Mellows ed. Henry of Pytchley’s Book of Fees, 50]. Around 1190, William II de Hastings’ son and heir, Henry, gave his land in Odestone to Maheu de Charun which, confirms this Hastings’ family’s interest in the locality [F M Stenton (ed.) Documents illustrative of the Social and Economic History of the Danelaw, No.463]. In 1242/23 Henry de Hastings held Fillongley of the Marmion fee for ¼ knight’s fee from which he was taxed ½ mark scutage [Book of Fees, 509]. The manor of Fillongley appears in the 1312 IPM of his grandson, John de Hastings, held of the heirs of Philip Marmion for ½ knight’s fee. His other vills of Leire, Shackerstone and Odestone are also recorded with their tenants [CIPM 5: no.412].
The Flamville Inheritance.
Erneburga brought the Flamville lands to her husband Hugh de Hastings by 1129. They were originally granted to her uncle Robert de Flamville by Robert de Limesi, Bishop of Coventry, consisting of holdings in Birdingbury, Warks., and Burbage and Barwell, Leics., with their appurtenances of Sketchley, Aston Flamville, Willenhall, Stapleton, and houses in Coventry for the service of 2 knights [Pipe Roll 31 Hen I, 87; M J Franklin ed. English Episcopal Acta 14: Coventry & Lichfield 1072-1159, 80/81]. By 1161-2 her son William II de Hastings is recorded holding these fees [RBE, 30]. Around 1242/43 William’s grandson, Henry de Hastings, is recorded holding the same two fees of the prior of Coventry [Book of Fees, 954]. The IPM of John de Hastings, (grandson of Henry above) [CIPM 5, no.412] shows that he was holding the manor of Burbage, Leics., of the prior of Coventry for a knight’s fee, the manor of Barwell of the same for ¾ knights fee, and Birdingbury, Warwickshire, for ½ knight’s fee which was tenanted for life by John Paynel. He also held Aston and Stapleton for ½ knight’s fee which was tenanted by Robert de Flamville.
Stewardship of the Liberty of St Edmund’s.
One of the earliest stewards (dapifer) of St Edmund’s known was Ralph, who was granted the lands of Lidgate and Blunham and confirmed in his position by William Rufus sometime between 1087 and 1097 [RRAN, I, no.395]. Between 1107 and 1119 the Bishop of Norwich gave Ralph, dapifer of St Edmund’s, and his wife Edith the church of St Edmund at Hoxne with its appurtenances, for as long as the longest survivor of the couple lived, after which it would revert to Norwich cathedral priory [Christopher Harper-Bill ed. Episcopal English Acta 6: Norwich 1070-1214, no.19].
By 1114-1119 the stewardship had passed on to Maurice de Windsor, according to a charter by Albodus the abbot who granted him the lands of Ralph his predecessor, and the stewardship in hereditary fee for 3 knights’ fees, additionally with all the land held be Ivo de Gissing for two knights’ fees [D C Douglas ed. Feudal Documents from the Abbey of Bury St Edmunds, no.109]. In 1130 Maurice and his wife, Edith gave the church of St Edmund at Hoxne, which had been previously refounded by Ralph the dapifer, and the tithes of Purleigh to the priory of Holy Trinity at Norwich [Barbara Dodwell, ed. The Charters of Norwich Cathedral Priory part I, 120]. The obvious implication of this is that Edith was wife to both Ralph and Maurice. In 1138 King Stephen confirmed to Maurice de Windsor everything he had held in the time of Henry I [RRAN III, no.764].
In 1155 King Henry II confirmed to Ralph de Hastings, Dapifer of the Queen, and his heirs the stewardship of St Edmund’s as Ralph the dapifer and Maurice de Windsor, his maternal uncle, had held [Douglas, Feudal Documents from the Abbey of Bury St Edmunds, no.87]. This meant that as heir of Maurice, Ralph de Hastings also inherited the interest in the Isle of “Sydritheseye” and the fee in Purleigh held from St Trinity, Norwich. In a charter witnessed by his wife Lescelina de Trailly and Robert de Windsor, Ralph gave a mark of land in Otley to Wix priory with his sister Agnes [Barbara Dodwell ed. The Charters of Norwich Cathedral Priory, I, 162]. Of interest is the fact that Ralph by this time was also dapifer to the queen, formerly a position held by Rainald de Windsor. This might suggest that Ralph’s mother, Maurice and Rainald may have shared the same exact parentage.
Between 1164-1166 King Henry II likewise confirmed to his dispenser, William II de Hastings, the stewardship of St Edmund’s to be held by him and his heirs, wholly and peacefully with its appurtenances in Lidgate and Blunham, which Ralph his (paternal) uncle had held, and Maurice (maternal) uncle of the same Ralph once held [“Sciatis me concessisse et carta mea confirmasse Willelmo de Hastyngs dispensatori meo dapiferatum sancti Edmundi. Quare uolo quod idem Willelmus et heredes eius habeant et teneant dapiferatum illum bene et integre et in pace cum omnibus pertinenciis eius in liberacionibus et feodis et innominatim cum Legata et Bluneham et aliis locis et rebus eidem dapiferatui pertinentibus sicut Radulfus patruus eius eum melius habuit et tenuit uel Mauricius auunculus suus eiusdem Radulfi.“ [D C Douglas ed. Feudal Documents from the Abbey of Bury St Edmunds, no.89].
In 1166 William de Hastings was recorded as holding five knight’s fees of the old feoffment for the Honour of St Edmund - tenements held by stewardship of St Edmund’s [RBE, 392]. His marriage to Maud, daughter and coheiress of Thurstan Banastre, brought to the family her share of inheritance in the manors of Aston and Munslow in Shropshire [CFR, 1216-1224, no.194]. William’s sister, Amabel, was given in marriage to Richard Foliot, (nephew of Gilbert Foliot, Bishop of London) with a maritagium of £5 rent in Blunham, and after Richard’s death she married Ralph de Excestre, son of Walter de Excestre and Emma de Hastings of Little Easton. This fact alone is indication that the two Hastings families did not draw their origins from common ancestors, for canon law relating to consanguinity would have prevented any such marriage. Ralph de Excestre gave land in Purleigh, which he had inherited from his mother, to the abbey of Old Wardon. After Ralph’s death Amabel gave the same abbey two shillings rent from a mill in Blunham from her maritagium [G Herbert Fowler ed., The Cartulary of the Cistercian Abbey of Old Wardon, Bedfordshire. 226, 239, 326].
William II de Hastings was dead by 1182 when his son and heir, Henry, was brought by Thomas de Hastings, Henry’s uncle, to Abbot Samson claiming the stewardship of the abbey by hereditary right. As Henry was only a youth at that time, Robert de Flamville, his kinsman, deputised for him until he became of full age around 1190 [J G Rokewode ed. Cronica Jocelini de Brakelonda, 20]. In 1188 Henry borrowed 5 marks from Henry de Cornhill, giving a charter witnessed by Hugh de Flamville of Friton and Hugh de Flamville of son of Alan, his kinsmen [John Horace Round ed. Ancient Charters, Royal and Private prior to AD1200, 90]
By 1194 the pipe rolls show that Henry had died without issue and was succeeded by his younger brother William III, who then owed 100s to have the relief of the lands and serjeanty of his brother Henry [Pipe Roll 6 Ric I, 63]. By 1205 William, mired by debt, was restored his manors of Blunham, Ashill and “Horitel” previously in the hands of the Jews, by King John [T. D. Hardy, ed. Rotuli Clausarum, I, 36b]. His holdings are substantiated by a feodary of St Edmunds of 1200 which records him holding 5 knights’ fees – 3 in Lidgate, Blunham and Herling and two in Tibenham and Gissing [Rokewode, op cit, 88]. However, in 1216 he rebelled against King John who commanded that his lands in Norfolk, Suffolk and Bedford should be handed to the abbot of St Edmund’s [T D Hardy, ed. Rotuli Clausarum, I, 265]. Shortly after the accession of King Henry III, William returned to the king’s allegiance and his stewardship was returned.
William was dead by 28 January 1226 when Henry, his son and heir, made a fine to have seisin of his lands in Warwickshire, Leicestershire, Shropshire, Bedfordshire, Norfolk and Suffolk and they were released to him [CFR, 1224-1234, nos. 83, 84]. Henry is recorded holding in Blunham and “Kenemundeswyk” of the liberty of St Edmunds in 1242/3 [Book of Fees, 870]. In 1269 Henry’s own son and heir, Henry junior, died holding fees in Suffolk and Norfolk pertaining to the fees of the stewardship of St Edmund’s [CIPM I, no.719]. In 1302 his son, John, was forced to sue for the stewardship. He claimed on oath that Henry de Hastings, his father, and Henry de Hastings his grandfather had held the stewardship in hereditary fee, but as the vacancy of the abbot of St Edmund’s occurred when he was a minor, it was not restored to him [W. Dugdale ed. Monasticon Anglicanum, III: 160]. Evidently the suit succeeded, for the IPM of John de Hastings records that he was holding manors by stewardship of the liberty of St Edmunds on his death. These were Tibenham, Norfolk for ½ knight’s fee, Blunham, Bedfordshire, for ½ knight’s fee and Lidgate, Suffolk, for ¼ knight’s fee. Also Gissing, Norfolk, for 1 knight’s fee, which was tenanted by his kinsman Nicholas de Hastings [CIPM 5, no.412].
See also the article on Hastings of Little Easton.
Bibliography
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem [CIPM]
Cronne, H A and R H C Davis eds. Regesta Regum Anglo-Normannorum 1066-1154; Vol. III. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1968. [RRAN III]
Davis, H W C ed. Regesta Regum Anglo- Normannorum 1066-1154: Vol 1 Regesta Willelmi Conqestoris et Willielmi Rufi 1066-1100. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1913. [RRAN I]
Dodwell, Barbara ed. The Charters of Norwich Cathedral Priory part I. London: Pipe Roll Society, 1974.
Douglas, D C ed. Feudal Documents from the Abbey of Bury St Edmunds. London: British Academy, 1932.
Dugdale, William ed. Monasticon Anglicanum. London: Longman, 1817-1830.
Dugdale, William. The Baronage of England. London, 1675.
Feet of Fines of the Reign of Henry II and of the First Seven Years of the Reign of Richard I A.D. 1182 to A.D. 1196. London: Pipe Roll Society, 1894.
Fowler, G Herbert ed. The Cartulary of the Cistercian Abbey of Old Wardon, Bedfordshire. Manchester: Bedfordshire Historical Society, 1931.
Franklin, M J ed. English Episcopal Acta 14: Coventry & Lichfield 1072-1159. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1997.
Hall, Hubert ed. Red Book of the Exchequer. London: HMSO, 1896. [RBE]
Hardy, T D ed. Rotuli Clausarum in Turri Londinensi asservati. London: Record Commission, 1833-1844.
Harper-Bill, Christopher ed. English Episcopal Acta VI: Norwich 1070-1214. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1990.
Mellows, W. T. ed. Henry of Pytchley’s Book of Fees. Northampton: Northamptonshire Record Society, 1927.
Rokewode, J G ed. Cronica Jocelini de Brakelonda. London: Camden Society, 1840.
Round, John Horace ed. Ancient Charters, Royal and Private prior to AD1200. London: Pipe Roll Society, 1888
Stenton, F M ed. Documents illustrative of the Social and Economic History of the Danelaw. London: British Academy, 1920.
The Book of Fees commonly called Testa de Nevill. London: HMSO, 1921-1931. [Book of Fees]
The Pipe Roll of 31 Henry I: Michaelmas 1130: Reproduced in Facsimile from the edition of 1833. London: HMSO, 1929.
"…bishop Robert of Exeter notified Robert fitz Roy of Okehampton that Osbern de Hiduna and his brother Geoffrey had granted land on becoming canons of Taunton, and this with the assent of Osbern’s son and heir Richard (EEA x, 44)".
There appears to be a transcription error for it was Othelin who became a canon at Taunton with his brother Geoffrey, around 1135, when his son and heir, Richard, succeeded to his estates, not Osbern. See DP, p.320.
John Ravilious
p.522 de Humet Constabularius, Ricardus
“Married Agnes de Bellomonte … by whom he had issue William de Hommet, Ingeran, Jordan and Agatha, wife first of William de Fougeres (d.1187) and secondly Fulk II Paynel”
According to the later chronicle of Savigny, where the deaths of several seigneurs of Fougères are recorded, Agatha was described as the daughter of William de Hommet (entry for the death of her son Geoffrey, on14 June 1212: "Obiit Gaufridus dominus Filgeriarum, filius Willelmi et Agathæ, filiæ Willelmi de Humeto, XVIII kal. julii.").
Peter Stewart
"Robert d.s.p. in 1193, when his heir was cousin Albreda, sister of Ilbert II, wife of Richard fitz Eustache (d.1163)".
There appears to be some confusion between Robert’s aunt and cousin. It was Albreda’s mother of the same name who was Ilbert II’s sister. See p.536.
Chris Phillips
"His principal heir seems to have been Emma de Langetot, probably his daughter - she was niece of Matilda sister of 'Ranulf' de Langetot - an error for Ralph - according to a Thetford charter of her daughter Muriel (BL Lansdowne 229, fol. 145v)."
It appears from a charter of a gift of land in Lenborough to Reading abbey, dated between 1130 and 1153, by Ralph de Langetot, that Emma was Ralph's sister. In it, Ralph refers to his father Ralph, his mother Cecilia, and witnesses include his sister Emma, and Alice de Chesney. Chronologically this Emma is the right age to be the same Emma de Langetot, widow of Geoffrey Fitz William and mother of Muriel and Cecilia, as listed in the 1185 Rotuli de Dominabus, in which she stated to be aged about 60, and therefore born about 1125. However it would appear that there were three Ralphs in succession and the Ralph giving the gift of land to Reading was Ralph III.
Kemp (1986-87), 31, no. 261
Rosie Bevan
“Father by his wife Beatrice of Bartholomew de Lega fl. 1190-1217/18, whose heir was his daughter Nicola wife of John Grey of Thurrock…” The wife of John Grey of Thurrock was Nicola’s daughter, Emma, by Roger de Cauz.
CP VI:171-172
Michael Andrews-Reading
“He died before 1185, leaving… a son John who died in 1193, when Basilia, later wife of Hugh de Odingselles (d.1239), and Eleanor, later wife of David I de Lindsay of Crawford (d.a.1219) daughters and coheiresses of Gerard were still minors.”
When John de Limesi died, he left three sisters and coheiresses, the eldest being Amabil in whom the Limesi barony was invested. She married successively Hugh Bardolf (d.a.1203), John de Braose (d.1205), Robert de Ropsley (d.c.1218), who each answered for the Limesi fees during her lifetime. Amabil died without issue in 1213, after which the barony was divided between David de Lindsay, son of her sister Alice (not Eleanor), and Basilia and Hugh Odingsells.
Pipe R 7 John, 34; Pipe R 9 John, 136; CRR, 1220, 292
Rosie Bevan
"Daughter and coheiress of Robert fitz William (fl. 1086), sister of Richard Mailard…"
This statement conflicts with the entry in DP under Robert fitz Hugh on p.385 which says that Letitia was one of his daughters. The evidence that Letitia was daughter of Robert fitz William, is implied by the fact that she was sister of Richard Mailart, son of Robert fitz William and this comes from G. Barraclough, 'The Charters of Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, c.1071-1237' (Record Society of Lancashire and Cheshire, vol. 126, 1988), nos. 13 and 28. Robert fitz William does not appear in DP as a tenant of earl Hugh or otherwise.
Todd Farmerie
p.566 de Mandeville, Gaufrid II; p.330 de Boclande, Hugo II
"... he was killed in 1144, when his heir was Geoffrey III by his wife Rohais de Vere. Father also of William, eventual successor of his elder brother Geoffrey, and of Robert, and a daughter Matilda, wife first of Peter of Ludgershall and secondly of Hugh II of Buckland (d.1175)."
It is unlikely that Matilda was daughter of Geoffrey de Mandeville. If she were Geoffrey's daughter, this would imply two marriages between second cousins in the following generation. The relationship as stated seems to arise from a misunderstanding of the chart of the Earls of Essex given in Complete Peerage v. V facing p.116/7.
Tim Powys-Lybbe, Chris Phillips, Todd Farmerie
p.566 de Mandeville, Geoffrey II
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf
Katharine Keats-Rohan
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf
Katharine Keats-Rohan
p.568 de Mandeville comes, Willelm
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf
Katharine Keats-Rohan
"In the following year Beatrice de Say, wife of Geoffrey fitz Peter of Ludgershall, daughter of William de Say and Beatrice, daughter of William I de Mandeville, was recognized as heir of the Mandeville earls of Essex"
This is a correction to Prof. Keats-Rohan’s correction to this entry. Beatrice de Say was granddaughter of William de Say and Beatrice de Mandeville, being daughter of their son William de Say II as outlined on p.681.
Todd Farmerie
"Married Isabel de Meulan,,.widow of Maurice II de Craon...” “He died c 1170. His wife married secondly Maurice de Craon."
Since Geoffrey died in 1169/70, and she married Maurice de Craon who died in 1196, it is clear that Maurice was her second husband.
ES, 3, table 719, 13, table 133
Mardi Carter
Brief summaries are presented on these pages of three members of the Miners family—Gilbert I, Gilbert II, and Willem. The linkage presumed in the summaries gives Gilbert I as the father of Gilbert II and Willem. I note that the words “perhaps” and “probably” are used to state the relationship between the assumed sons and the father. Finally, Henry is described as the son of Willem and the father of three unnamed daughters.
I have found at least two secondary sources that offer an alternative lineage that looks like this:
- Roger de Miners
- Henry de Miners
- Richard de Miners
- William de Miners
- Henry de Miners
- Isabel de Miners
- Elizabeth de Miners
- Basil de Miners
My two sources are:
- ”Collections towards the History and Antiquities of the County of Hereford,” Vol. III, by William Henry Cooke. (P. 47)
- “Essays on Archaeological Subjects,” Vol. I, by Thomas Wright. (p.54)
In addition, I’ve seen several source snippets (Google Book searches) that indicate Gilbert de Miners decided to stay with his French allegiance (c. 1204) and return to France. I cite as a source:
- “A History of the County of Cambridge and the Isle of Ely,” Vol. 5, Victoria County History. (Barton Parish: Manors and Other Estates)
Recognizing that my sources are secondary, and that the language in DD seems to suggest some uncertainty; can anyone determine which of the lineages should be followed?
Gordon Kirkemo
